Author Topic: Care & Feeding: Santa proof, stocking color, grabby nephew  (Read 339 times)

Offline Lynn2000

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Care & Feeding: Santa proof, stocking color, grabby nephew
« on: December 12, 2018, 03:23:29 pm »
https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/12/santa-letter-proof-lie-care-and-feeding.html

Three letters this week.

1) The writer's 11-year-old son (there are also two younger kids, 9 and 7) has written a letter to Santa asking for proof of his existence. The writer doesn't know what to do--put out "proof" and essentially lie to the kid, or not put out proof and possibly have all his hopes of belief dashed. The adviser has a pretty emotional response, but suggests it's important to know more about the kid's goal, and try to figure out if he's really cleverly set a trap or is more like 75% towards wanting to believe and would appreciate that continuing.

2) The writer's 9-year-old nephew has been obsessed for the last year with proving he is taller than the writer, even though there's still like a foot difference between them. This includes not only interrupting other conversations to demand they talk about height, and dismissing her admonishments because she's "mad she's shorter," but also pushing her against walls and grabbing her in an attempt to pick her up. The adviser agrees this is obnoxious and wrong, and a good time for all the relevant adults (kids' parents and writer's spouse included) to put a firm stop to this behavior before he gets the idea it's acceptable.

3) The writer's husband wanted to do Christmas stockings for their two kids (ages 4 and 2) and the writer didn't care much and put it all on her husband, so he bought a white stocking for her, a green stocking for one kid, and red stockings for himself and the other kid. Now the writer is worried that Kid 1 matching Dad, while Kid 2 matches no one, will have a negative effect on the kids later. The adviser asks (which I think she should have done first, not last) if the stockings have been personalized, because if not, just switch them around so the parents have both red ones, leaving one kid white and the other kid green. Assuming they HAVE been personalized, she agrees the writer should just go ahead and get new stockings so everyone matches or whatever, if they can afford that--not because it's super-important, but more because little kids can have meltdowns over anything and if you can remove one thing from that list, so much the better.

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Offline Lynn2000

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My thoughts:
1) It seems to me like 11 years old is kind of old to still have a belief in a literal Santa. What do others think? At any rate, my suggestion would be to take the 11-year-old into the conspiracy. There's no literal Santa--it's Mom and Dad--but Santa represents a spirit of joy and giving and selflessness that anyone can share and believe in. So, maybe the oldest kid would like to help set up "Santa proof" for the younger kids, like reindeer hoofprints in the living room or something, thus passing on that magical feeling of joy to the little kids.

2) I felt the advice was phrased a bit confusingly, kind of meandering, when more practical suggestions would have been helpful, and she gets into a digression about whether he might be on the autism spectrum, which is really something for his parents to deal with. I agree with the advice to refuse to be alone with the kid and tell him flat-out that it's because he keeps grabbing the writer. Does a year seem like a long time for a kid to fixate on something like this? Part of me wonders if he is doing it precisely because he gets a rise out of people about it, so maybe they should focus less on the height issue and more on, "Grabbing and pushing people is wrong, you are grounded, go to your room." And interrupting people is wrong, if I have to tell you three times, you're grounded. Or whatever punishment scheme the family uses. Obviously the writer has to make sure the kid's parents understand her discomfort and have her back on this, since they are the ones who will be punishing him. But no, like, yelling at him or otherwise causing a scene he might enjoy. I would try that first, anyway, and see if that shakes him loose from this behavior.

3) I don't have a spouse or kids, so I don't know what you do if you disagree with your partner about a parenting decision. In an ideal world, I would say, "Why does Mom have to solve this, when Dad caused the problem?" I would point out to Dad that the kids might be upset about the stocking colors and he needs to fix it. If he didn't agree it was important, then I would leave him to deal with any tantrums or meltdowns that occurred because of it. But I don't know if that's really a practical answer. Instead of buying new stockings, perhaps the parents could involve the kids in super-personalizing their stockings--like the kids get to glue pompoms and fabric pieces onto theirs, while Mom and Dad's remain plain. Then it would be like, the kids' stockings are decorated and the parents' stockings are plain, which might make more of an impression than the underlying color.

I guess this means I do agree that the color differential seems potentially problematic--in and of itself in an ideal home, it would not be a problem, but there will always be unfair things in life, and a Christmas stocking is a very potent receptacle for symbolic resentment. Like Kid 1, in 20 years, could articulate the immense pressure he feels as the oldest child to follow in his dad's footsteps as an accountant, even though he wants to be an artist, and he hates that red stocking that's just like Dad's, and always envied his little brother, who was allowed to be more free-wheeling and follow his dreams, and his stocking was GREEN like no one else's! You know, it's not about the stockings, it's just that the stockings are tangible evidence of other forces he's been feeling his whole life. Why not try to make things as fair as possible for the kids when you can, knowing that there will be many times when you can't help but be unfair?

guest121

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My oldest is 11, turning 12 in a couple of months. I don't know if she fully believes in Santa, but she acts like it.

She asked me 2-3 years ago if Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny were real or if it was just me & Daddy. I told her that magic is like a game with two teams - the grown up team that help Santa and know how everything works, and the kid team that get presents and enjoy it.

I said if she really wanted to know, I would tell her the secret and she could be on the helping team. But once she switched, there's no going back.

She's never asked again.
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Offline Lynn2000

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That is a really lovely reply to your daughter's question.

I think some people get so caught up in either "the game" or the idea of deception that they miss the point, which is that anyone, of any age, can believe in the spirit of the season and act it out. One family I knew of had special wrapping paper that only "Santa" used to wrap his presents, while the parents used other kinds, and they called it by a code name so they could talk about it when the kids were around--I forget the word they used, but it was like, "Can I use this roll or is it the crunchy paper?" Okay, that's cute. But then someone's girlfriend was there for the first time and she accidentally called it "the Santa paper" and everyone totally froze, holding their breath, to see if the kids had picked up on it, and the girl felt really bad afterwards. Like, you don't need to treat it as a Seal Team Six operation, you know? And make someone feel bad if they slip up. That's 100% the opposite of how people should feel, to be in the spirit of the season.

And then you have the people who are like, "Santa is a lie, and I'm not going to lie to my kids!" Okay, bitter much? Have you no magic in your soul, in your childhood? Do you let your kid "play pretend" and run around with a towel around their neck pretending to be a superhero, or do you tell them that's a lie, too? Do you LIE and tell them their scribble drawing is beautiful, or do you critique it for form and chuck it away? I mean, come on. I do agree that the moment it feels like you're telling a lie to an unwilling participant, as opposed to participating in a magical game together, that's the time you should think about a new strategy, but don't go straight to "no lies." It's way too cynical.

If you don't "do" Santa, for religious or other reasons, that's fine, but just explain it that way--don't dump on other people, like, "We don't have Santa because there IS no Santa, Bobby's mom is lying to him."

Offline Airelenaren

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One family I knew of had special wrapping paper that only "Santa" used to wrap his presents, while the parents used other kinds, and they called it by a code name so they could talk about it when the kids were around--I forget the word they used, but it was like, "Can I use this roll or is it the crunchy paper?" Okay, that's cute. But then someone's girlfriend was there for the first time and she accidentally called it "the Santa paper" and everyone totally froze, holding their breath, to see if the kids had picked up on it, and the girl felt really bad afterwards.
That would be such an easy fix, though.  ???
"No, Girlfriend, you must be thinking of someone else. We have striped paper and paper with polkadots or snowflakes or snowmen. We do not have any with Santa on it." (Or alternatively, if they do, just hand her that one.) Add in a meaningful (not stern) look to clue her in.

And I too have never considered the Santa tradition a lie. But I wonder if people who do, and are opposed it, allow such things as fictional novels and movies in their homes.

I think I still did believe in Santa when I was 11. I know for sure I did when I was 10. Although it probably helped that I got a few "signs of proof" without asking for them (such as a neighbor knocking on our window in an elf costume). I wonder if there is a way the boy could be given "proof" that doesn't requite acting on his parents' part. Who knows, though? He may even find some even without them doing anything. If he really wants to believe and is stubborn enough, he'll find something to interpret that way. ;)

As for the socks...personally, if I had the skill to do it, I'd just stitch on some decorative elements to make them all have some kind of twin. For instance, make it so the red socks share a color, but the green and white sock both have a star on them.

guest121

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Well, at our house Santa always leaves a thank-you note for the cookies and milk (and carrots for the reindeer). So if my kid wrote to Santa and asked for "proof", Santa would probably reply in the TY note with a copy of the "Yes, Virginia" letter, or a paraphrase of it.

Offline lowspark

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I'm Jewish so of course, no Santa in our house. However, we did do the tooth fairy which is similar enough in that it's a fictional character whom kids believe is real and who gives your kids money. When my kids were old enough, and aware enough, to ask, then yeah, I went ahead and told them the truth.

Here's how I see it. When you tell a 2yo or 3yo about Santa/Tooth Fairy, it's a sweet sort of story and a part of childhood. When a child is at the age where they are old enough to take notice and question things, then if you continue to insist that the myth is true, it sort of does become a lie. Again, this is my own take on it, not a judgment on how others choose to raise their own kids.

As far as the question of Santa's existence when it did, inevitably, come up in my house, I explained to my kids that no, Santa didn't exist, but that this was a secret for us to keep to ourselves so we wouldn't ruin the game for other children. After all, my kids weren't getting presents from Santa, so I had to explain it in such a way as to not make them feel bad for that, but also so that they wouldn't tell other kids whose parents wanted them to believe.
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Offline lowspark

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For the second letter, I think that the LW's mistake was to try to argue with a 9yo in the first place. Once she answered that he's not taller, as the child began to make an issue of it, she should have quit replying, and just smiled and ignored the statement.

When you argue with children, they always win regardless of who is right, because the very fact that you have engaged in the argument gives them credence.

But the real problem here is that this child is now being physically abusive. I would have no problem defending myself. Firmly grasp the shoulders, move the child away from you, and sternly say, "Do not grab me" or "Do not try to pick me up" or whatever is appropriate. While I don't recommend hurting the child, I think that there is definitely a need to react physically so as to disarm the situation.

This child is old enough to know better and if the adults allow this behavior to continue to the point where he uses this behavior as an older child and adult, it's going to be bad for him and the people around him for the rest of his life.
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Offline lmnop

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We had Santa growing up and my nieces & nephews have it now. But we for sure were all done believing by about 8 years old, maybe 9 at the latest.

If I had kids, I'm sure that we would do Santa, but deep in my heart I actually find the whole thing so problematic. Not because it's a "lie" to your kids. Though I also have a problem with comparing making up a fictional being that brings money and gifts with a book or movie that you tell a kid is make believe. The comparison isn't, "If you think Santa is a lie, you can't have Harry Potter." The comparison should be, "If you think Santa is a lie, you can't tell your kids that Harry Potter is a real wizard, living in London and no one should ever, ever tell you that he is just made up."

No, what my actual issue with the whole thing is that it really penalizes poverty. The rich kids get extravagant gifts from Santa and the poor ones get basics or nothing at all. Does that mean that the poor kids are on the naughty list, while the rich kids are on the nice list? Because that is the message that is sent.

Like I said, I don't begrudge people have Santa, and I would probably do it myself if I had kids. But I think it's probably worthwhile considering the larger social implications.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 07:51:07 pm by lmnop »
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Offline Airelenaren

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There are charities nowadays who collect gifts for poor children. Granted, that can't cover all of them, but it's a start.

Offline Crispycritter

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For the 11 yr old about the truth/fiction of Santa, it really would depend.  If my kid really believed in Santa - I'd be worried a bit by the 11th year because it seems a bit old to have that belief.  Not that there is anything wrong with the kid, but more that with all of the many things kids learn from other kids - it would be a bit of a worry for me that my kid would be embarrassed by other kids for still having that belief.  Would I tell them the truth?    If it were a shy kid, or a socially anxious kid - then yes.  For a bolder, more outgoing kid that wouldn't be crushed by peers - then probably not.

For the 9 year old height checker - he sounds to me like he has a bit of a crush on the Aunt.  He needs to be calmly told to stop grabbing, interupting, etc.  Preferrably by his parents, but if they don't then the Aunt herself should.   

The stockings - it might not matter at all to the kids, but if there isn't personalization yet another idea would be to write down the colors on strips of paper and have everyone draw from a hat. 



Offline Cushy Butterfield

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"Santa" was still showing up at my house when I was 10. I had my doubts, but I didn't share them with my parents, because (a) they were still willing to play along, and (b) presents! I think the "Yes, Virginia" essay is a great way to answer an older child who is asking for proof. It doesn't come right out and say that yes, there's this real, live dude who lives at the North Pole and brings presents made by elves to all the good children of the world; it's about the ability to "imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world."

I don't have children, but if I did, I would probably tell them the story of St. Nicholas and how he evolved into Santa. I would explain that Santa is pretend, and encourage them to join in the pretending if they wished to, and their dad and I would play along, within limits (no extravagant lists of presents we can't afford!). I'd also explain that some families like to pretend really hard, so they shouldn't go around telling their little friends that Santa "isn't real," because Santa is as real as you want him to be (see "within limits"). I'd probably also throw in something about how we all have the opportunity to be Santa by giving to others.

This is how my partner handled it with his daughters. It helped that their mother has some Dutch ancestry and exposed them to the Sinterklaas tradition, so they knew from an early age that Santa is a character with different interpretations in different cultures, not a literal living person.

Offline AliciaLynette

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My DD is almost 10, and when she started asking about Father Christmas/Santa Claus a couple years ago, I explained that it's different stories in different cultures (and possibly at some point in history there was a real person that the legend came from) but that the important thing is the showing of love and appreciation to family and friends not who gives the actual gifts.  I do re-iterate every so often that she shouldn't spoil it for people who still believe, which she assures me she doesn't.

The bickering between her and her Daddy on whether Father Christmas exists is highly amusing though!

Offline Lynn2000

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I remember thinking about the rich/poor kid difference re: Santa even when I was a kid. I think that's just something a thoughtful parent has to build into their explanations of Santa, even at the full pretending stage--like if your kid says, "My friend Jenny didn't get any presents for Christmas, she says it's because her mom couldn't afford it, but why didn't Santa bring her anything? She's been good!" I mean, that's just heartbreaking, but it's also a good opportunity to talk about the unfairness of the grown-up world and how it can affect children. You don't ever say, "Oh, they didn't get any presents? Well, that's because they were naughty." I think, from songs and commercials and so forth, a kid could definitely pick up just the simplistic explanation of no presents = naughty, with no other nuances or considerations (poverty, other religion, etc.), and that's just something a parent has to watch out for and explain, as you explain anything that isn't as black-and-white as a young kid first thinks.

It would be a great opportunity to do something like finding an Angel tree and helping your child donate a gift to a child in need, thus "playing Santa" for someone else. Like I said, I think that is really "the truth" about Santa--not that there is a single magical, literal person making judgments and delivering presents, but that many people make a conscious decision to go out of their way to help someone else and make their holiday/life a little better (whether a stranger or a member of their family, like doing something fun for a younger sibling). And once you get used to doing it at Christmas, you can segue into other times of year as well, because even as a kid it also occurred to me that people don't just need food, coats, etc. once a year.

Offline STiG

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My Mom would always take my brother and I out and tell us to pick out a toy that we would like to have that was less than $X.  And then we gave that toy to the toy drive.  I guess I always thought that would be on top of whatever the poor kids got from Santa because their parents couldn't afford to buy them presents.

My brother is almost 5 years older than I am.  He continued to play along and even helped my parents with some stuff, like making sleigh marks and boot prints over to the chimney.  The year I started waffling, my parents thought it was time to give it up.  We always wrote our letters to Santa and left them on the fireplace hearth.  My brother's letter asked, 'Santa, could you please fix my snowmobile?'  The next morning, in my Dad's handwriting, 'Fix your own damn snowmobile; what do you think I am?  A mechanic?'

Our Santa toys were never the most expensive thing we got; it was usually just one toy.