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General Life / Re: Anyone else following the Kon-Mari decluttering? Or a different system?
« on: May 08, 2019, 03:15:02 pm »
For those of you who sell stuff on line, how do you do it?
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Too late to invite?
« on: May 03, 2019, 04:43:19 pm »
Sounds like it worked out fine.
So this comment is moot, but anyway in my opinion it would've been fine to invite Max and Odette and not other extended family members. Everyone seems to know that they have a very close relationship. It's the situation that we often talk about where it's not cool to invite 10 out of 12 cousins, but it's fine to invite 1 of 12.
[On this board, do I have to put in the standard "assuming no dysfunctionality" disclaimer?
]
So this comment is moot, but anyway in my opinion it would've been fine to invite Max and Odette and not other extended family members. Everyone seems to know that they have a very close relationship. It's the situation that we often talk about where it's not cool to invite 10 out of 12 cousins, but it's fine to invite 1 of 12.
[On this board, do I have to put in the standard "assuming no dysfunctionality" disclaimer?
]
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Couple banned non-vegans from their wedding
« on: May 03, 2019, 04:37:22 pm »
I suspect this isn't true -- it's just too outrageous -- but I love me a good bridezilla story, so ...
I loved the comments, especially the one where someone bet $100 that she will pitch a fit at all the uninvited guests who don't get her gifts anyway.
Do you suppose there are people who won't invite any people who don't vote their way or share their religion? Probably. But they are probably not stupid enough to proclaim it and insult them as fascists/libtards/heathens.
I loved the comments, especially the one where someone bet $100 that she will pitch a fit at all the uninvited guests who don't get her gifts anyway.
Do you suppose there are people who won't invite any people who don't vote their way or share their religion? Probably. But they are probably not stupid enough to proclaim it and insult them as fascists/libtards/heathens.
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Updates and Announcements / Re: Are We Circling the Drain?
« on: December 19, 2018, 05:41:26 pm »
This is becoming a very interesting discussion! Very good points about the changing role of etiquette, too.
Sometimes we do want to know the etiquette rules -- I mean, if you are writing a formal wedding invitation, you have to start somewhere, right? It's not like you go to jail (or even etiquette hell) if you decide that you want to deviate from the established formal conventions, but it helps to start with them.
Conventional forms have the advantage of clarity, too -- they are commonly understood, sometimes with regional/cultural variations. Like dress codes: "White tie" has a very clear meaning: tail coats for men, gowns for women. "Black tie" has a pretty standard range of meaning, although in some communities (and some years) it implies long gowns and in others cocktail dresses, and usually either, but always dressy evening attire -- nowhere does it mean jeans or other casual wear. Something like "Festive fun!" "Creative!" or "Dress to impress!" means nothing and is guaranteed to create puzzlement and sometimes irritation, and definitely a lot of questions about what to wear! Those were some of the most fun discussions on the old board.
Or say you want to have a fancy dinner party. It can be fun to learn how to set a formal table; then you can vary it if you please.
When you are a guest, especially in something like a job interview, it's really good to know and follow the rules! Helps you feel confident and secure if you aren't afraid you're doing something gauche.
And of course there are times and places and groups where following not just formal, but even informal, etiquette rules go out the window, by common consent. You know whose refrigerator you can help yourself in, when you can read the paper at the table, whose house you can drop in on and put your feet up, and whom you can call after midnight.
All that by way of saying that in my opinion there is still a place in our lives for discussion of etiquette. I really learned a lot from where the discussions went that started with something as simple as how to address an envelope.
Sometimes we do want to know the etiquette rules -- I mean, if you are writing a formal wedding invitation, you have to start somewhere, right? It's not like you go to jail (or even etiquette hell) if you decide that you want to deviate from the established formal conventions, but it helps to start with them.
Conventional forms have the advantage of clarity, too -- they are commonly understood, sometimes with regional/cultural variations. Like dress codes: "White tie" has a very clear meaning: tail coats for men, gowns for women. "Black tie" has a pretty standard range of meaning, although in some communities (and some years) it implies long gowns and in others cocktail dresses, and usually either, but always dressy evening attire -- nowhere does it mean jeans or other casual wear. Something like "Festive fun!" "Creative!" or "Dress to impress!" means nothing and is guaranteed to create puzzlement and sometimes irritation, and definitely a lot of questions about what to wear! Those were some of the most fun discussions on the old board.
Or say you want to have a fancy dinner party. It can be fun to learn how to set a formal table; then you can vary it if you please.
When you are a guest, especially in something like a job interview, it's really good to know and follow the rules! Helps you feel confident and secure if you aren't afraid you're doing something gauche.
And of course there are times and places and groups where following not just formal, but even informal, etiquette rules go out the window, by common consent. You know whose refrigerator you can help yourself in, when you can read the paper at the table, whose house you can drop in on and put your feet up, and whom you can call after midnight.
All that by way of saying that in my opinion there is still a place in our lives for discussion of etiquette. I really learned a lot from where the discussions went that started with something as simple as how to address an envelope.
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General Life / Re: Funeral flower etiquette
« on: December 19, 2018, 02:36:12 pm »
My experience is like lowspark's, and I was wondering the same thing. Pushy wording aside, I would think that the person was thinking that whoever sent the flowers or plants would want them to go to their friend, not randomly given to some different family member who doesn't even know them.
It sounds like the wording wasn't really all that bossy anyway:
That doesn't even sound "forceful" to me, but I'm just reading it in print, and Lynn2000 was there to hear the tone. Maybe the lady in charge was trying to hurry or something, which can sound more like pushiness. But maybe she was just trying to be helpful and make sure the flowers ended up where the givers intended them to go. Who else should she have given them to?
This reminds me of a post some time ago (may even have been on the old board) where someone left her only jacket at a meeting at someone's home, and when she called about picking it, the hostess said she'd hold it until next time. That poster thought she was being held off, but several people said they thought the hostess, not realizing it was the poster's only jacket, was just trying to save her the bother of picking it up, as if to say, "Oh, it's not in my way, you don't have to make a special trip before next time."
If someone doesn't want or can't have a plant or flowers, there is always someone they can give it to, on the spot or later. But if they were a gift from your friends or office colleagues, it does seem like you ought to be the one to take or otherwise deal with them, the same as any other gift. I do see your point about it being an inconvenient time, though.
In our community, charitable donations are by far the most common, followed by food and contributions toward the meal of consolation after the funeral and meals for about a week. When my mother-in-law died recently, the only floral arrangement came not to the funeral home, but to our home, from our daughter's office overseas; if her colleagues could have attended, they probably wouldn't have sent the flowers. And one person gave us a set of wind chimes -- no idea why, but they are nice.
It sounds like the wording wasn't really all that bossy anyway:
It wasn't like, "You MUST take this!" but more like a forceful suggestion. Bob wanders, unwisely, over to the flower area and the lady in charge says, "Here, you should take these, they are yours!" and hands him the ones Sally sent.
That doesn't even sound "forceful" to me, but I'm just reading it in print, and Lynn2000 was there to hear the tone. Maybe the lady in charge was trying to hurry or something, which can sound more like pushiness. But maybe she was just trying to be helpful and make sure the flowers ended up where the givers intended them to go. Who else should she have given them to?
This reminds me of a post some time ago (may even have been on the old board) where someone left her only jacket at a meeting at someone's home, and when she called about picking it, the hostess said she'd hold it until next time. That poster thought she was being held off, but several people said they thought the hostess, not realizing it was the poster's only jacket, was just trying to save her the bother of picking it up, as if to say, "Oh, it's not in my way, you don't have to make a special trip before next time."
If someone doesn't want or can't have a plant or flowers, there is always someone they can give it to, on the spot or later. But if they were a gift from your friends or office colleagues, it does seem like you ought to be the one to take or otherwise deal with them, the same as any other gift. I do see your point about it being an inconvenient time, though.
In our community, charitable donations are by far the most common, followed by food and contributions toward the meal of consolation after the funeral and meals for about a week. When my mother-in-law died recently, the only floral arrangement came not to the funeral home, but to our home, from our daughter's office overseas; if her colleagues could have attended, they probably wouldn't have sent the flowers. And one person gave us a set of wind chimes -- no idea why, but they are nice.
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General Life / Re: Miss Manners: Paper plate shaming
« on: November 30, 2018, 03:39:11 pm »
It certainly wouldn't "bother" me, which was the question, nor would I think ill of anyone using disposables, but it might surprise me a little at an otherwise formal event for small enough group. The hosts went to all the trouble of making a really special meal; why not just go an extra inch and put out dishes and flatware to enhance it? Not just for the look; many people find it more appetizing, and easier, to eat off of dishes and with metal utensils than paper and plastic. But even as to just the visuals; if you have nice things and don't use them for holidays or formal occasions, when would you use them? Makes your guests feel special, too. (Easy for me to say, with a dishwasher, and anyway we don't really mind washing dishes. 
I have also found that it doesn't take as much longer as I would have thought to wash dishes than to clean up disposables -- a lot of the clean up is other stuff than dishes.
But! As I said, I'd just wonder, I wouldn't be bothered (although I do hate the environmental impact of disposable plastic), and I certainly wouldn't criticize. It is just a different preference and style from ours. I've eaten many happy and yummy meals off of disposables!
This reminds me of an evening when our family were dinner guests at a colleague's home for a fairly formal evening. Total of five people. He was a good cook, and the food was terrific. The table was set with plastic plates and grape jelly jars for glasses. We didn't care, and it was just fine, but we did think it seemed kind of odd in light of the china hutch full of nice china dishes and stemware, right next to the table! We didn't comment or ask, but we did wonder what he was saving that stuff for. Maybe he just inherited it or something and hated it.
I have also found that it doesn't take as much longer as I would have thought to wash dishes than to clean up disposables -- a lot of the clean up is other stuff than dishes.But! As I said, I'd just wonder, I wouldn't be bothered (although I do hate the environmental impact of disposable plastic), and I certainly wouldn't criticize. It is just a different preference and style from ours. I've eaten many happy and yummy meals off of disposables!
This reminds me of an evening when our family were dinner guests at a colleague's home for a fairly formal evening. Total of five people. He was a good cook, and the food was terrific. The table was set with plastic plates and grape jelly jars for glasses. We didn't care, and it was just fine, but we did think it seemed kind of odd in light of the china hutch full of nice china dishes and stemware, right next to the table! We didn't comment or ask, but we did wonder what he was saving that stuff for. Maybe he just inherited it or something and hated it.
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General Life / Re: Another Tipping Thread... Mandatory Tip?
« on: November 29, 2018, 05:48:40 pm »I also hate it at sit down restaurants when I'm paying with cash, and i'm asked if i "need any change" Unless I have the exact amount, including tip, and I tell them, "i don't need any change" then yes, yes, i do want it back.
That really bugs me. No better way to get me to leave a minimal tip than to ask me if I want my change back.
lowspark, I agree with you. I think maybe that the person at the counter at a food place may be paid sub-minimum wage, though, because it's a "restaurant," while the cashier at a store isn't. But I still very rarely tip at a counter.
Just more reasons, among many, why the whole tipping system is a terrible idea. These are just (very) annoying. But some problems are much worse.
Just charge me more and pay your staff!
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: "Bridal shower", what gift do you give?
« on: November 25, 2018, 12:00:55 pm »
There is a big difference between buying a different lamp or a different set of towels than the ones the people registered and buying something that isn’t a different version of what they said was their choice.
Not everything in the world that a couple might really, really want is sold at the two or three stores where they register, after all. Some things cannot be registered at all.
Some of the best gifts I’ve ever gotten are things I didn’t even know existed, but the givers had found and knew I would love. I certainly did not find that “insulting.”
Likewise, I have given gifts to people that they haven’t registered for but that they absolutely loved as well. I wasn’t thinking of it as “knowing better than they did what they wanted or needed,” and I don’t think the thought of it that way, either: it was just a wonderful surprise of something really special.
Usually I do choose something from the registry, but when I know, sometimes after some research, that there is something else that the recipient will really love and appreciate, I will do that instead. Situations vary so widely: a gift that is just perfect for a couple that is already well-established may be completely impractical for a couple that is just getting by and needs all the basics, and vice-versa.
I do agree that you need to keep the recipient in mind, not your own ego, when choosing a gift. But I disagree that that automatically translates into only getting people things they have already selected for themselves at a very limited number of stores.
Not everything in the world that a couple might really, really want is sold at the two or three stores where they register, after all. Some things cannot be registered at all.
Some of the best gifts I’ve ever gotten are things I didn’t even know existed, but the givers had found and knew I would love. I certainly did not find that “insulting.”
Likewise, I have given gifts to people that they haven’t registered for but that they absolutely loved as well. I wasn’t thinking of it as “knowing better than they did what they wanted or needed,” and I don’t think the thought of it that way, either: it was just a wonderful surprise of something really special.
Usually I do choose something from the registry, but when I know, sometimes after some research, that there is something else that the recipient will really love and appreciate, I will do that instead. Situations vary so widely: a gift that is just perfect for a couple that is already well-established may be completely impractical for a couple that is just getting by and needs all the basics, and vice-versa.
I do agree that you need to keep the recipient in mind, not your own ego, when choosing a gift. But I disagree that that automatically translates into only getting people things they have already selected for themselves at a very limited number of stores.
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General Life / Re: Good table manners - what dos and don’ts were you taught?
« on: November 19, 2018, 04:27:32 pm »
Here is one that hasn't been mentioned, but it was a BIG one at our house: the Yuck Rule. No saying anything disparaging (or making faces, etc.) about anything that was being served or that someone else was eating. You don't like it or want any, fine, you don't even have to try it, but don't interfere with others' enjoyment (saying something like, "No, thanks, I don't care for olives" or something like that is fine, just not something like "Oh, gross, olives -- how can you eat that?").
I believe the modern locution, as stated by Cynthia Nixon, is "Don't yuck my yum." (I'm glad I wasn't around when she ordered a cinnamon raisin bagel with lox, capers, and onions, appalling New Yorkers and Jews everywhere, though! I would've had a hard time restraining myself. Steven Colbert called it "The worst Nixon scandal in the history of politics."
But even then, he didn't say it in front of her while she was eating it).
I'm glad our parents taught us that. I find it really rude and obnoxious when people do it -- what is the point?
I believe the modern locution, as stated by Cynthia Nixon, is "Don't yuck my yum." (I'm glad I wasn't around when she ordered a cinnamon raisin bagel with lox, capers, and onions, appalling New Yorkers and Jews everywhere, though! I would've had a hard time restraining myself. Steven Colbert called it "The worst Nixon scandal in the history of politics."
But even then, he didn't say it in front of her while she was eating it).I'm glad our parents taught us that. I find it really rude and obnoxious when people do it -- what is the point?
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: "Bridal shower", what gift do you give?
« on: November 19, 2018, 04:10:30 pm »
I think a holiday shower sounds like a terrific idea! That would be fun to attend. It's always more interesting to me when shower guests choose or make their own gifts rather than buy off the registry most of the guests have already seen.
Next time one of my friend's kids gets engaged, I may just volunteer to host a holiday shower.
Next time one of my friend's kids gets engaged, I may just volunteer to host a holiday shower.
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Care & Feeding: Paying for the wedding
« on: November 19, 2018, 04:08:14 pm »
Looks like we all agree -- the thing for these parents to do is to offer as much as they are willing to offer, in terms of money and work, and stay politely firm about it. They can be understanding and sympathetic to the other parents without caving -- after all, there is a future relationship (even if not between the parent couples then between the bride and groom and each other's families) to consider. Best to do what you want without making a battle about it. Solve, don't win.
I'm not quite in agreement with all of CautiouslyOptimistic's post, though:
It's not a one-size-fits-all rule. Planning the wedding isn't the litmus test for maturity.
There are many families in which the parents do part or even all of the planning/paying, for all kinds of reasons. It may be their ethnic culture or simply family preference (including the preference of the bride and groom) to have big, all-the-extended-family weddings that are beyond the bride and groom's ability to plan and perhaps pay for at the time, and it suits everyone to let the parents host. Or it may just be what everyone wants.
Sometimes schedules and geography play a part. My best friend's daughter lived in another city but wanted her wedding in her home town. She was perfectly happy with her mother, with whom she gets along great and whose taste she completely trusts, planning everything, and her parents were happy to pay for everything.
My daughter had a similar situation -- she wanted to get married here, but she lives overseas. It was hard enough to do the planning together; it would've been an nightmare for her and her husband to try to do it themselves, seven time zones away. We were happy to pay for and plan it; our parents did the same for us, as did our friends in the story above.
Both these couples were quite mature enough to marry and a few years down the road have very good marriages to prove it. I'm sure they could have paid for and planned very nice weddings, if perhaps not as big as their parents did, but it suited everyone involved to do it this way, so whom did it hurt? It's not necessary to judge them with a blanket declaration that they must not have been grown-up enough to get married.
I'm not quite in agreement with all of CautiouslyOptimistic's post, though:
I'm of the mind that if your parents are planning your wedding, you're not grown-up enough to get married.
Helping? Sure. Contributing? If they want to and can, that's lovely. But getting married is time to "leave and cleave," as they say, and the wedding plans are the first stage of that.
It's not a one-size-fits-all rule. Planning the wedding isn't the litmus test for maturity.
There are many families in which the parents do part or even all of the planning/paying, for all kinds of reasons. It may be their ethnic culture or simply family preference (including the preference of the bride and groom) to have big, all-the-extended-family weddings that are beyond the bride and groom's ability to plan and perhaps pay for at the time, and it suits everyone to let the parents host. Or it may just be what everyone wants.
Sometimes schedules and geography play a part. My best friend's daughter lived in another city but wanted her wedding in her home town. She was perfectly happy with her mother, with whom she gets along great and whose taste she completely trusts, planning everything, and her parents were happy to pay for everything.
My daughter had a similar situation -- she wanted to get married here, but she lives overseas. It was hard enough to do the planning together; it would've been an nightmare for her and her husband to try to do it themselves, seven time zones away. We were happy to pay for and plan it; our parents did the same for us, as did our friends in the story above.
Both these couples were quite mature enough to marry and a few years down the road have very good marriages to prove it. I'm sure they could have paid for and planned very nice weddings, if perhaps not as big as their parents did, but it suited everyone involved to do it this way, so whom did it hurt? It's not necessary to judge them with a blanket declaration that they must not have been grown-up enough to get married.
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Shower thank yous
« on: October 27, 2018, 07:28:34 pm »
That other baby shower was this morning. It was at her friend’s home. It wasn’t a lot of people, so there was plenty of time to talk to everyone when we ate and did the various contests: Identify the baby pictures of the family, write down the names of baby animals, etc: it was kind of a lot, but they were all really cute and everyone had a nice time. And I even won a prize for the baby animals thing!
They did open the gifts at the shower. It was fun to see the cute things that people found. Many of the gifts had a fox theme, because the mother to be loves foxes. It was a pretty small group, maybe a dozen people, so it didn’t take very long.
And it didn’t take away from time to socialize. While the guest of honor opened the gifts, people still chatted. That’s always been my experience; the socializing continues, it’s not like a show with an audience that has to sit quietly.
Maybe part of the takeaway here is that showers just work better when you have a smaller group. This one was just perfect, in my opinion.
They did open the gifts at the shower. It was fun to see the cute things that people found. Many of the gifts had a fox theme, because the mother to be loves foxes. It was a pretty small group, maybe a dozen people, so it didn’t take very long.
And it didn’t take away from time to socialize. While the guest of honor opened the gifts, people still chatted. That’s always been my experience; the socializing continues, it’s not like a show with an audience that has to sit quietly.
Maybe part of the takeaway here is that showers just work better when you have a smaller group. This one was just perfect, in my opinion.
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Shower thank yous
« on: October 26, 2018, 04:36:39 pm »As an aside, I have a colleague from South Korea, and apparently in their culture, they often don't open gifts in front of the recipient. I don't know about things like showers or birthday parties--maybe they do then. But a couple times the work group got him a gift, like for his wedding or baby, and we hand it to him, and we all wait for him to open it, and he's just like, "Thank you so much. That's very nice," and never opens it! Then he would take it home and open it and he/his wife would send a nice note back. It was pretty funny the first time. You forget something like that is just a cultural construct, that another culture might not share.
That's common to several Asian cultures, I believe. It was one of the things we learned in our orientation when we were teaching in Vietnam. Came in handy when I did receive a gift and I knew not to open it in front of the giver.
I agree with you that it's better to open gifts at the shower -- a topic we visited several times at the old board. I like social gatherings, so for me it isn't to minimize the socializing. It's that calling a party a "shower" implies that the guests are to bring gifts. You usually can't politely make any reference to gifts in an invitation, but showers are the exception, because if the central activity is to be opening gifts you can't do it unless, well, you tell people to bring gifts. But if the gifts are not opened at the shower, then the exception to the rule against telling people that they are expected to bring gifts (which using the word "shower" does) vanishes.
It feels a little different to me for a baby shower than for a wedding shower, because for a wedding shower it's an extra gift in addition to the wedding gift (presumably all the shower guests will also be invited to the wedding). But if I bring a gift to a baby shower, that's going to be my gift for that baby. I'll probably bring a tiny token gift the first time I meet the baby, but the shower gift will be "the" baby gift. So at least it wouldn't have a "bonus gift grab" vibe.
But for any kind of shower, I think it's better to open the gifts at the shower. For those who really don't want to, or who protest that they don't care about the gifts anyway, they just want to celebrate, then simply don't call it a "shower" -- have some other kind of nice party for the bride- or mother-to-be.
I happen to be invited to another baby shower this weekend. We'll see if she opens the gifts! (If she doesn't, I won't say anything, of course.)
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Wedding Etiquette / Re: Shower thank yous
« on: October 25, 2018, 07:02:34 pm »I'm one of those who is very pleased when the gifts aren't opened at the shower, because I don't find the process very interesting as a guest. So that may influence my thoughts here.
I think if it's only been a few weeks, give the parents time, they may still be planning to send thank you cards.QuoteAnd as we always say, if you have time to attend a shower and then open gifts (especially if you do it later, thus taking more time), then you also have time to thank people.
Writing thank you cards probably takes a little longer than attending a shower, so you may want to cut them some slack for a bit longer. Also I don't see how opening the gifts after the shower takes more time than opening them at the shower?
It’s not really important. I just meant that if you open the gifts as, say, 30 minutes of a 3 hour shower, then you don’t spend an additional 30 minutes doing it later. But that’s inconsequential.
And it’s not a problem of cutting her slack or giving her more time (before what?) — I’m not upset or mad or anything. I don’t care if she never writes.
The point of the post was just my observation that because thank you notes (or texts or whatever) have to serve more purposes when the guest of honor doesn’t open the gifts in the givers’ presence — not just a gracious expression of gratitude, but also letting the givers know the gifts were received and associated with the correct giver — that promptness seems especially important. That’s all.
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Family / Re: Couple disagree about visit
« on: October 25, 2018, 12:07:11 pm »
Your aunt didn’t say she didn’t want you to see your uncle, just that she wasn’t feeling up to a visit herself. So I would make plans to go out for lunch with your uncle and say that if Aunt is feeling up to it you would love for her to come too.
Think about whether you might discuss your concerns about your aunt with your uncle. Or maybe give a call to one of your cousins?
Think about whether you might discuss your concerns about your aunt with your uncle. Or maybe give a call to one of your cousins?