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Messages - GloryAndCrumpets

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Entertainment / Re: Let's talk about the Oscar Nominees for 2019
« on: March 22, 2019, 03:14:53 pm »
Quote from: Lynn2000 on March 19, 2019, 04:04:35 pm
And now the white person is the protagonist, so they should grow and change,

Reading through the thread, it occurred to me if this isn't another big reason for why these kinds of movies keep getting made- people like redemption. They like stories of people overcoming their flaws and becoming better, wiser individuals. Stories about redemption are uplifting and inspiring and they make us feel hopeful, especially when it's a story about someone overcoming some really awful flaw like deep-seated racism. We like the idea that there's good in everybody, that a white supremacist can possibly stop being a white supremacist and that maybe we'll finally reach a point where we really can all "just get along." And honestly, I think stories like that can be just as important to tell and to hear. But they can obviously be told in very problematic ways and when that's the only story about race that gets told, you run into so many of the issues that people have discussed in this thread.

2
Books / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 17, 2019, 11:39:21 am »
Quote from: hardia on March 09, 2019, 08:08:51 am
Oof. I just bought The Lost Girls of Paris and had read a few chapters, but realized I wasn't in the mood for a war story where there would be death and destruction, so I put it away again. I guess I'm less likely to get it out again any time soon! And one of the reasons I picked it up was because we just booked a family trip to Paris and I thought it would be fun to read something that takes place there, so ...

Have you read The Sweet Life in Paris? The author, David Lebovitz, is a chef who, after his partner died, moved to Paris to get a fresh start in life. The book is all about adjusting to life there and learning to become a Parisian. It's really good, hysterically funny, and also has a whole bunch of recipes included in it. If you're looking for a book set in/about Paris, I'd definitely recommend that one over Lost Girls.

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Books / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 08, 2019, 03:46:18 pm »
I just finished The Lost Girls of Paris by Pam Jenof for my book club and oh mercy, was it bad. It should have been awesome- I mean, it's about English women acting as spies in France during WWII- but it was just blah. The writing was really bad, the characters were undeveloped, interchangeable cardboard cutouts (well, one of the three main women was noticeably dumber than the others), there was a clumsy, forced romance between two characters who had had literally three scenes together and exchanged maybe 15 lines of dialogue (none of which was meaningful or emotional or did anything to show any kind of emotional connection between them- the author basically just announced "Oh, hey, they're in love now," and that was that ::) ), the "plot" was ridiculous and sort of just thrown together willy-nilly, one of the main characters had no apparent reason or motivation for anything she did other than to move things along, and there were all kinds of stupid little errors, made all the worse by the fact that the author apparently has a Masters degree in history (for example, there was one part where the ceiling of a hotel was described as being decorated "with the seals of all fifty States," which would be fine, except it's 1946 and there aren't fifty States yet). To top it all off, despite the title of the book, only ONE SCENE actually took place in Paris, and it lasted for maybe...three pages? If that. LITERALLY NOBODY IN THE BOOK SPENT ANY REAL TIME IN PARIS, INCLUDING THE TITULAR "LOST GIRLS." I honestly just skim-read the last half of the book because I just could not take it anymore.

My book club meets on Sunday. I'm really hoping everybody else disliked it as well and we can have a good old bitchfest about it BECAUSE IT WAS BAD.

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Romantic Relationships and Sex / Re: Dear Prudie: Husband had an affair with a former student
« on: March 02, 2019, 10:33:30 am »
The whole thing is just so creepy and unhealthy. I felt like I needed to take a shower after reading it. The husband is slimy, the wife is in denial, and the whole thing is just a mess. And honestly, the way the wife was talking about the students was kind of creepy, too (the whole thing about high school girls being "on the cusp of womanhood" and at their "physical peak" was just...ew.). I think everybody involved there needs a lot of very professional help.

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Work Issues / Re: The etiquette- and ethics- of reporting online posts
« on: February 22, 2019, 04:21:20 pm »
Quote from: Lynn2000 on February 18, 2019, 10:49:25 am
I think public shame has its uses, and is as old as humanity and is how we shape our group norms and acceptable behaviors. And there's always going to be tension between what's acceptable behavior and what isn't, as times change and people decide XYZ really isn't that big a deal (e.g., divorce, gay relationships), or ABC is actually really insidious and horrible (e.g., sexual harassment, bullying). And of course not everyone feels the same way about every issue at the same time.

The new thing, to me, is that if something's online, it's always going to be there and probably easy to find. I keep thinking of the lady who, just before she got on a plane to South Africa, tweeted something like, "Hope I don't get AIDS! Just kidding, I'm white, so I won't get AIDS." Like, just a pile of awful things in one little bundle. And while she was on the plane, this totally snowballed, and she walked off the plane to a storm of media attention and the fact that she'd been fired. I don't know her name, but it would be really easy to find by Googling, and if you started with her name, like on a job application, it would also be easy to find this whole history. And a lot of employers might decide that they don't want to deal with that--not even thinking of dealing with her personally, but rather dealing with media inquiries as to why they hired HER. Like, it's negative publicity, and who needs that?

Should she have been taken to task for her comments? Absolutely. She should have been made to feel shame by the reaction of whatever group would be most meaningful to her--general public, friends and family, employer, whatever. Did she deserve to get blackballed for life for her comments? I don't think so, if only because I feel like she should be given a chance to learn and grow, and then show that she's learned and grown. A company can just fire someone and never think about them again, but that person goes on living, and they have to find a job and pay their bills and find a way to deal with their new reality. And, it's kind of like prison--if you don't give people opportunities to improve while they're being punished, they're going to come out the same as, or even worse, than they went in, and then they're just going to do the same bad thing again.

So, that's actually one of the instances that Jon Ronson talks about both in his TED talk and his book on public shaming. The woman who made the tweet actually meant it to be a joke about how blind and privileged so many people are (link to TED talk, which is really interesting- both it and the book are worth your time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI). Now, obviously it was poorly delivered (to say the least) but the sentiment behind it wasn't what people originally thought.

For me, that's part of it, too. We are so quick to rush to a snap judgment in this day and age and completely vilify someone without waiting for the whole story. I'm thinking about the whole thing that happened recently with the Covington Catholic students in Washington, D.C. I mean, a report came out that these kids had said/done something racist and immediately people were jumping over each other to be the first to condemn them. It was like a competition to see who could offer the harshest, swiftest condemnation. Except...not that long after, more information came out and there was a lot more to the incident than first appeared. The students in question had a very different side of things than the original story and a lot of the video evidence that emerged later actually backed up their account of things. I remember several articles where people very sheepishly retracted a lot of what they had said before. But we're so addicted to outrage and our 24-hour news cycles are so desperate for stories that nobody is willing to wait an extra five minutes for the rest of the story.

6
Books / Re: What are you reading?
« on: February 16, 2019, 11:30:10 am »
I just started House of Names by Colm Toibin. It's a retelling of the story of the House of Atreus, alternating between the points of view of Clytemnestra, Orestes, and Electra. My book club just read Circe by Madeline Miller, which put me on a Greek mythology kick, and this is filling the bill quite well.

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General Life / Re: Bringing unsharable consumables to someone's home
« on: February 16, 2019, 11:24:52 am »
Quote from: lowspark on February 13, 2019, 01:04:16 pm


Back to my original question, when people first started coming to my house with their water bottles, it did get on my nerves a bit. Mostly because, I like to serve people with my pretty dishes and glasses, so I'd rather not see a plastic bottle plopped on the table among my crystal goblets. And after all, water is water, right?

But I've WAY gotten over that.



Now see, that seems strange to me (people plopping their water bottle on the table among the glasses), because a) if I went to somebody's house for an occasion where we were going to sit down at a table and have a meal, I wouldn't bring my water bottle and b) if I did happen to have my water bottle with me and the host(ess) brought out glasses of water for everybody, I would leave my water bottle in my purse and drink from the glass. It would definitely feel odd to me if I gave everybody glasses of water (or whatever) and somebody insisted on continuing to use their bottle. Not rude, necessarily, but...odd.

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Work Issues / Re: The etiquette- and ethics- of reporting online posts
« on: February 16, 2019, 11:12:26 am »
Quote from: Lynn2000 on February 14, 2019, 01:13:08 pm
I wonder why some people go straight for the employer? I'd think that wouldn't be as effective as, say, the media. Like we've seen recently with old celebrity tweets and politicians' yearbook photos, public signed offensive words and images can be pretty damaging when the media publicize them, and often result in the offender losing their job. It doesn't have to make the CNN crawl, but a local newspaper might investigate and publish something about a local business owner or employee at a sensitive job, like a daycare. Or, of course, they might not because they don't have the talent/motivation, need the support of the business, don't think the offense is a big deal due to local norms, etc.. That's still true for big celebrities and national news, though. I mean, there's entire books about the culture of being shamed online, which might start with a small group of users but is usually spread by mainstream media reporting on it. And, that's something where one small comment, showing poor judgment but not necessarily a systematic bad pattern, can rapidly snowball into something where the employer feels they have to take action (which is good or bad, depending on your viewpoint).

Speaking solely of posts one sees online--and not anything the person has actually done to you, or offline knowledge you have--violent threats should probably go to the police first, and any other mentions of criminal acts, like... I don't know, someone bragging online about doing hard drugs, embezzling money, etc.. The police usually take violent threats seriously, but I don't know about the other things. If they did look into it, though, they would probably end up talking to the person's employer anyway, which wouldn't look good for the offender.

A relative of mine (discussed in another thread) recently posted a racist meme on Facebook, and I really wanted to somehow send it, with her name attached, to ALL of our family, like, "What is this garbage? Can I get some support in shaming her?" Unfortunately, probably only a minority would agree with me, and even fewer would be willing to do something about it--one person I can think of who would be offended would probably be like, "Yeah, that's why I don't visit very often." In other words, they've already voted with their feet, so to speak. I mean, not that I really want to institute a big shunning--I will just vote with my feet as well--but that was an early impulse, to somehow marshal the collective social pressure of a specific group for the greater good. So that's another option in some cases--bringing social pressure from someone's peers, rather than their employer.

Of course, one could also try addressing the offender directly, like replying to their post on Facebook or sending them an instant message or something.

I mean, you could spend your life railing against "people on the Internet who are wrong." But it's worth thinking through what the best venue for a response is, why you feel that way, what sort of response you're hoping to get, what the next steps are, etc.. Like, suppose you report something to an employer, and the person does get fired... and then what happens? Do you envision that they somehow learn from this event and become a better person? Unlikely, really. If you're, say, an ex out for petty revenge--don't you think the person is going to guess you're behind it? Or maybe they'll just move on and get another job, and you'll still be giving them headspace, so really, they win.

I don't know, personally, I'm really not big on the culture of public shaming that we seem to be cultivating, especially because so often it seems nearly impossible for individuals to recover from the shaming incident. That's who they become and what follows them around forever afterwards, and I just don't feel like most people deserve that, even people who have made pretty big missteps. Also, if you go to the media first, I think you can get into a situation where the employer suddenly finds their hands tied and feels like they have to respond a certain way, when perhaps they would have preferred a different approach. Maybe the person in question is otherwise a stellar employee, and the employer feels like, if they had been notified, they could have handled this more better internally, or addressed the issue effectively without necessarily firing the person. But now there's all this media attention and they feel forced to fire a person they otherwise wouldn't have. Speaking for myself, if I really felt something needed to be done, I would probably go to the person's employer first and let them decide if and how they want to pursue it and then, based on their response, maybe escalate it, if I really felt it needed attention.

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General Life / Re: Bringing unsharable consumables to someone's home
« on: February 07, 2019, 07:28:55 pm »
I would say with something like this, it kind of depends on the situation. I'm trying to drink more water and to that end, I've started carrying my large Nalgene bottle with me all day. I keep it near me when I'm in the house, and throw it in my bag when I go somewhere. So a lot of times, if I'm getting together with someone casually or it's a spur-of-the-moment visit, my water bottle is already be in my bag and I'll go ahead and drink out of it and maybe ask if I can refill it before I leave. I've never had anybody look askance at that, and it wouldn't even be a blip on my radar if one my own guests did the same thing. Now, if I'm going over to someone's house for a formal dinner part, then yeah, I won't take my water bottle with me, and I would think it was a bit odd if someone showed up with one in that situation. Maybe not horribly, unforgivably rude/tacky, but...a little weird and maybe off-putting.

Now that I think about it, the purpose of the gathering might play into things as well. If I'm getting together with my book club or for a "stitch and ****" session with a friend, or something where there may very well be snacks, but the event isn't centered around a meal, I would think nothing of bringing a water bottle or a travel mug of coffee. On the other hand, if I'm getting together with someone specifically for a meal- so, say, the dinner party example- I wouldn't bring any food or drink with me (unless it was a contribution to the meal or a hostess gift, like a bottle of wine), and I would think it weird if other people did. That seems to me a lot more like "I don't trust your hosting" than bringing along your water bottle to a non-food centered event.

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Work Issues / Re: The etiquette- and ethics- of reporting online posts
« on: February 03, 2019, 08:47:55 pm »
Quote from: Lynn2000 on February 03, 2019, 02:23:46 pm
Oh, and I also wanted to comment on the Catholic school firing the pregnant single teacher... Yeah, it's just, you know, when you signed up to work there, you knew this could be a problem, and you proceeded to (I assume) deliberately get pregnant with no plans for marriage. Like, the story would be much more nuanced if she became pregnant because she was ****, or if she became pregnant and was actively planning a wedding but her fiance died suddenly or they broke up, or if she became pregnant through AI with the intention of being a single parent (no sex involved). I think those would all be much more ambiguous situations for an employer with such a policy to deal with.

I mean, I certainly think it's a bad policy they have. But at the same time, it's hardly a surprise that a Catholic school would feel that way, and this wasn't something obscure buried in their code of conduct, like--"I saw a picture of you on Facebook eating a hamburger on Friday during Lent! That's against the school policy!" This was something that would be obvious over many months, every day, to her students, and that wasn't an example the school wanted to set. Again, I think the school should worry about other things instead, but it's not a surprise.

Historically they wouldn't even let married women remain as teachers, for fear that when they eventually got pregnant it would lead to uncomfortable questions from their students about where babies came from, even though the teacher was properly married, and even though these were often farm families who were quite used to pregnant and baby animals. Not something I've ever understood, but it caught out ancestors of mine who were teachers (mainly in places where they had the luxury of firing the teacher and finding a new one pretty fast--in frontier areas I've noticed married women with young children were often teachers, as I suppose they didn't have much choice).

Yeah, in this particular case, there was no nuance. She was living with her (male) partner, they decided they were ready to start a family, and she got deliberately pregnant. In the article, it talks about how she went in to the principal's office and told them she was pregnant and that she had deliberately timed it so that she would be due in June and wouldn't have to take maternity leave, and when they asked if she and her partner had any plans to get married, she told them no. Which is so many kind of "in your face" violations of Catholic teaching that I'm really surprised that she was so surprised that the school/diocese had the reaction they did.


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Introductions and Hellos / Re: Hello
« on: February 02, 2019, 12:01:58 pm »
Hello and welcome! We're so glad you're here!

I'm one of your friendly local Admins. I'm married to Damocles, the other Admin, although he just started a new job so he isn't around quite as much. We also have a couple of awesome moderators that I'm sure you'll run into at some point. Anyway, I live in central Ohio where I homeschool the kids, work part time in a bookstore, and occasionally find time for things like reading and crafting and baking. I also love bad puns.

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General Discussion / Re: That Time You Came Up with the Perfect One Liner/Comeback - At the Right Time
« on: February 01, 2019, 05:01:10 pm »
So, the other day I had a good comeback but didn't use it. Damocles and I have four kids, which I don't think is an unreasonable number, but seems to shock a lot of people.

Anyway, I was in the grocery store the other day with all the kiddos and a somewhat older woman stopped asked me "Are they all yours?!" I was really tempted to say something like "No, I just like collecting random small children to take to the grocery store. I find it really enhances the experience." But she actually seemed quite nice so I stopped my sarcastic mouth in its tracks and just said "Yes, they are!" Which was good, because she then complimented me on how well-behaved they were, which was nice to hear.

But yeah, I was actually pretty proud of myself for not being snarky!

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Work Issues / Re: The etiquette- and ethics- of reporting online posts
« on: February 01, 2019, 04:19:06 pm »
This is a really interesting discussion. It actually reminded me of a case not that long ago where a teacher at a Catholic school was fired when she got pregnant out of wedlock and had no plans to marry her partner. The out of wedlock pregnancy violated the code of conduct that employees of the Diocese agree to follow. The teacher in question was not Catholic herself, but, like all the other employees at the school, she had agreed to abide by the code of conduct.

Part of me sympathizes with her, and I'm not sure firing a pregnant woman is really a great example to be setting for young students. But part of me also feels like "Look, you may not agree with this code of conduct, but you signed it and agreed to follow it, so I feel like you kind of lose some of your right to complain when they punish you for knowingly and deliberately breaking it. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't work for them."

Article about the case: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/teacher-fired-catholic-school-getting-pregnant-wedlock-160848588.html

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Entertainment / Re: Let's talk about the Oscar Nominees for 2019
« on: January 26, 2019, 10:45:56 am »
I haven't seen any of these movies. Not one. I haven't even gotten around to Incredibles 2 yet.

So I'll just say that those costumes in The Favourite and Mary, Queen of Scots look really, really pretty.

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General Discussion / Re: Little Things That Annoy You
« on: January 26, 2019, 10:39:48 am »
Oh man, that thing with the keys? Yeah, that's me. And my phone and my gloves and my wallet and all those other little things I can't leave the house without but always seem to wander off of their own accord. I try to keep them all in my purse, but then half the time I can't remember where I left that, either. I joke that I sometimes feel like I have St. Anthony on speed dial, although if I could actually do that, it wouldn't really do me any good, because I would have lost my phone.

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