Author Topic: Transgender Track Athletes  (Read 822 times)

Offline Poesie

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2018, 10:47:18 am »
Heard a radio segment the other day where this issue was discussed with transgender sports people on the panel. Bit I heard sounded interesting. Will try and track it down and post a link.

Offline pjeans

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2018, 08:39:43 pm »
I think it makes sense to have some hormone levels thresholds and/or other guidelines that are measurable. Someone who hasn't started any transition won't be on equal footing with the competition as their mass, metabolism, etc will be too different. Measurable thresholds would be able to indicate when an athlete is far enough in their transition. There may even be tolerances already established that they use when screening for drugs that give unfair advantages.

I've found the idea of gendered sports interesting. I think of competitions like the Olympics as the best, strongest, and fastest. Women achieve them with the qualification "fastest woman" "strongest woman", etc, while men can achieve unqualified "strongest person", "fastest person"... Not that I'm trying to diminish female Olympians' achievements, they're leagues beyond my abilities! Just an interesting thing to ponder.

Oh, and as for the golfer,  I think it was Casey Martin. He was allowed to use a golf cart to travel certain distances in the game, but was required to get out and be standing on the ground whenever the cart was not traveling. Golf isn't about the walking, but there is an element of fatigue over the course of several hours that makes it hard for a golfer to continue to perform well over the whole game. The tour didn't want Martin to get the equivalent of five-ish hours of rest during the game that other players don't get. I thought the compromise seemed fair.


Offline STiG

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2018, 09:28:25 am »
There has also been cases of genetically female athletes with a genetic abnormality that results in increased levels of testosterone.  The most well known one would be Castor Semenya.  She was winning everything in sight and then they made her get tested and put her on drugs to reduce her testosterone to some level that was deemed acceptable.  And she wasn't winning very much.  The ruling got overturned and she doesn't have to take the testosterone reducing meds any more and is back to winning.

In the case of transgendered athletes, I think if they have started down the transition path with the medications needed, they should be able to compete as their preferred gender.  If they haven't?  Then they should have to compete in the competitions of their gender at birth.  I think I recall a case of a high school athlete who put off taking the transition medications so as to compete as their birth gender.  A wrestler, I think?

Offline MrTango

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 09:56:34 am »
I'm of the opinion that the purpose of separating athletes is because the different sexes tend to have different physical traits.

Because of that I think that the determining factor in whether a person competes in men's or women's events should be based on their physical sex, not their gender identity.
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Offline Lynn2000

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 11:09:55 am »
To me sports is really going to be on the forefront of these discussions, because it's one area in modern life where it's the physical that really matters--your muscles, your hormones, etc.. And, there are objective winners (and losers)--the fastest time, the biggest lift, the most points, etc..

Something like acting is just totally different. Brad Pitt could submit himself in the Best Actress category if he wanted, but there would be a big outcry about it, and probably no one would vote to nominate him there in the final grouping, or vote for him to win that category if nominated. The nominees and winners are very subjective, a collective anonymous decision. But you could have a transgender actor, who is completely biologically male still but identifies and lives and works as a woman, submit themselves in the Best Actress category, and no one would claim they have some kind of "unfair advantage" due to being biologically male. It's about acting skill (and let's face it, lots of other things like politics and campaigning and box office returns and how good the rest of the movie is) not hormones or chromosomes.

In the case of the track athletes, if they have been living as teenage girls--in dress, manner, names, etc.--it does seem weird to me, to make them compete with the boys. On the other hand, if they have not started any medical intervention, then they ARE boys physically still, and have some physical advantage over the girls running next to them. But then you have the idea that they want to be athletes, and they also want to be girls, they are not "boys in dresses and wigs" pretending to be girls for the physical advantage like in some bad sports movies I saw in the '80s. Do they have to give up on being one or the other--athletes or girls--for the time being? They may have an advantage in this particular race, but they don't necessarily have an advantage in LIFE as a whole, they are facing a lot of obstacles that the girls they run against don't.

I have no idea what the answer is, although I like the idea of dividing people up based on hormone levels or muscle mass or something like that, not sex/gender. I'm sure for most of human history, dividing by sex/gender seemed like an obvious, reasonable, objective idea. But now we understand better that it's not always clear.
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Offline Jem

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2018, 12:06:13 pm »
I think doing hormone testing for all people is not reasonable. I also agree with the poster who pointed out that, generally speaking, men/boys are bigger/faster/stronger than women/girls. I think allowing birth males - even those who have started meds - to compete with birth females would erase all the work done by Title IX. I realize this may not be a PC opinion, but I do think that a person who chooses to transition should not simultaneously compete athletically.

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2018, 04:30:30 pm »
Here's a thought:

Are the activities we classify as competitive sports inherently gendered? When you think about the activities that testosterone/Y-chomosomes are advantageous for - speed and strength - these are the things society applauds and considers enjoyable to watch, gives scholarships for, encourages as character-building, and so forth.

Estrogen, progesterone, and xx developmental characteristics give an entirely different set of physical advantages - longevity, endurance, flexibility/agility, and so forth.

It's hard to imagine these fitting into what we classify as "sport," though it's easy to see examples of extreme physical feats in entertainment: acrobatics, dance, circus skills, contortion, aerial work, etc.

The only well-known international competition I can think of where women are anywhere close to equal competitors and have multiple championships, is the Iditerod sled race, where I'm sure the endurance factor is important.

So maybe it's an inherent issue in the whole concept of what is competitive, what is exciting, what is admirable.

It has always been more acceptable for women to be shiny and charming and entertaining than to win. And more acceptable for men to win than to be shiny.

Offline Thrabalen

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2018, 04:51:16 pm »
I'm of the opinion that the purpose of separating athletes is because the different sexes tend to have different physical traits.

Because of that I think that the determining factor in whether a person competes in men's or women's events should be based on their physical sex, not their gender identity.

I'd prefer grouping them based on their physical traits, not their physical sex. The two are not always correlative. Stronger women should compete (in events where strength is an asset) with men of their strength class, not with women that are much weaker than they.

Offline pjeans

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2018, 06:29:52 pm »
Here's a thought:
Are the activities we classify as competitive sports inherently gendered? When you think about the activities that testosterone/Y-chomosomes are advantageous for - speed and strength - these are the things society applauds and considers enjoyable to watch, gives scholarships for, encourages as character-building, and so forth.

I think they are-- historically women were more restricted in what they were even allowed to do, so it makes sense that competitions in 'valued' activities were centered around areas where men excel.

I expect this to be very unpopular, but I don't think sports should even have mens' and womens' versions. Put them all together. There are traditional sports in which men excel, but others gaining in popularity where women excel. I know it will lead to fewer opportunities for some school kids in some sports, but it would open up opportunities in others. If there's enough demand, then have tiered classes. In the end, some kids will still be stars and some will still be cut, as always. The spectators will definitely be seeing the best of the best.


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guest121

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2018, 07:09:57 pm »
Here's a thought:
Are the activities we classify as competitive sports inherently gendered? When you think about the activities that testosterone/Y-chomosomes are advantageous for - speed and strength - these are the things society applauds and considers enjoyable to watch, gives scholarships for, encourages as character-building, and so forth.

I think they are-- historically women were more restricted in what they were even allowed to do, so it makes sense that competitions in 'valued' activities were centered around areas where men excel.

I expect this to be very unpopular, but I don't think sports should even have mens' and womens' versions. Put them all together. There are traditional sports in which men excel, but others gaining in popularity where women excel. I know it will lead to fewer opportunities for some school kids in some sports, but it would open up opportunities in others. If there's enough demand, then have tiered classes. In the end, some kids will still be stars and some will still be cut, as always. The spectators will definitely be seeing the best of the best.




The problem with that is, that it would perpetuate institutional sexism and erase many of the practical and cultural benefits we've achieved towards women's equality in society.

Because it's not just that "some kids" will miss out on scholarships.

Girls would miss out on scholarships. And be excluded from networking opportunities. And grow up being characterized by others and internally as "losers" and "weak." And very likely, many girls would stop competing. Which would just reinforce the regressive notion that boys are "naturally" competitive, while being aggressive and ambitious are "unfeminine."

It's not just that "some kids" would be better or worse.

Boys would be overtly classed as better, and girls as worse. And the supposed "fairness" of grouping everyone together would be used as an argument why women aren't qualified to lead - because they aren't "winners."

When football (both the worldwide and US types) basketball, boxing/wrestling, baseball, and track no longer dominate the airwaves, school sports budgets, and University scholarships, then it might make sense to make single leagues the norm.

But until these alternate sports you mention (what are they, by the way? They don't seem to play anything like that on TV where I live)

...until the sports where women routinely beat men are getting an equal market share of money and attention, the practical fallout would set us back fifty years.
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Offline pjeans

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2018, 12:56:07 am »
Maybe some of this is just that I have a different perspective: sports aren't a big deal to me. Not even close. In addition to that, women have done an exceptional job demonstrating that they're not "losers" in virtually every other aspect of life, so I don't think this would suddenly send the message that women are incapable. It seems that sports are the only activity where the world has accepted this two-level system of men's and women's versions to accommodate women who aren't as good as men.

There are currently plenty of sports teams in schools for kids who don't make the top team. I'd expect that to continue. They still compete with other schools and qualify for scholarship money. Actually, girls' sports are almost a version of that right now. I remember the occasional high school girl playing boys' hockey or football rather than girls' because they were good enough. The rest played on the girls' team.

Now, sports where women excel... I always hear about equestrian events. I'm pretty sure those super-marathons favor women, and I've only seen mixed competitions in rock climbing, but I can't say for sure whether women were consistently outperforming men there; they were definitely worthy opponents.

Those alternative sports are gaining traction. I suppose they will never pull the same kind of money as, say, football, but women's football doesn't get that kind of status either, so it's not like there's some equality that has already been achieved that needs to be preserved.

I understand the concern about a loss of gained ground. I just don't think much ground really has been gained. The idea of sex-distint sports has always seemed to me like saying "yeah, we know they're not as good as men, but we'll pretend that's not true by keeping them off the same court."

Like I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion. And this is coming from a person that has never placed a high value on sports so it's easy for me to throw my imaginary wrench into the works. I totally get that this idea really messes with a system that has worked out very well for some girls, and that it would be disheartening to hear. Nonetheless, it is what I think.




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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2018, 01:50:30 pm »
Maybe some of this is just that I have a different perspective: sports aren't a big deal to me. Not even close. In addition to that, women have done an exceptional job demonstrating that they're not "losers" in virtually every other aspect of life, so I don't think this would suddenly send the message that women are incapable. It seems that sports are the only activity where the world has accepted this two-level system of men's and women's versions to accommodate women who aren't as good as men.

There are currently plenty of sports teams in schools for kids who don't make the top team. I'd expect that to continue. They still compete with other schools and qualify for scholarship money. Actually, girls' sports are almost a version of that right now. I remember the occasional high school girl playing boys' hockey or football rather than girls' because they were good enough. The rest played on the girls' team.

Now, sports where women excel... I always hear about equestrian events. I'm pretty sure those super-marathons favor women, and I've only seen mixed competitions in rock climbing, but I can't say for sure whether women were consistently outperforming men there; they were definitely worthy opponents.

Those alternative sports are gaining traction. I suppose they will never pull the same kind of money as, say, football, but women's football doesn't get that kind of status either, so it's not like there's some equality that has already been achieved that needs to be preserved.

I understand the concern about a loss of gained ground. I just don't think much ground really has been gained. The idea of sex-distint sports has always seemed to me like saying "yeah, we know they're not as good as men, but we'll pretend that's not true by keeping them off the same court."

Like I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion. And this is coming from a person that has never placed a high value on sports so it's easy for me to throw my imaginary wrench into the works. I totally get that this idea really messes with a system that has worked out very well for some girls, and that it would be disheartening to hear. Nonetheless, it is what I think.





I was never a serious athlete myself, but if you don't think Title IX has had a huge impact on women's equality in the workplace and society, then you need to educate yourself.
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Offline Jem

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2018, 02:06:12 pm »
I'm of the opinion that the purpose of separating athletes is because the different sexes tend to have different physical traits.

Because of that I think that the determining factor in whether a person competes in men's or women's events should be based on their physical sex, not their gender identity.

I'd prefer grouping them based on their physical traits, not their physical sex. The two are not always correlative. Stronger women should compete (in events where strength is an asset) with men of their strength class, not with women that are much weaker than they.
I am not really sure what you are saying, but weight classes are a thing for many sports (wrestling, power lifting, Olympic lifting come to mind). This is based on body weight, not how strong a person is.

Men and women generally do not compete together because of genetic differences (testosterone, for example, makes men generally stronger). There are also age classes (CrossFit Masters divisions, qualifying times for marathons based on age, etc.) because getting older affects athletic performance and recovery time.

I don't know what you mean by "strength class." If you mean "all people who can deadlift 300# compete together" that does not make very much sense. Some people will be 15 year old girls who weigh 125#, and some people will be 30 year old men who weigh 275#. It wouldn't make any sense at all to group these people together.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 02:08:28 pm by Jem »

Offline Thrabalen

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2018, 02:31:20 pm »
I'm of the opinion that the purpose of separating athletes is because the different sexes tend to have different physical traits.

Because of that I think that the determining factor in whether a person competes in men's or women's events should be based on their physical sex, not their gender identity.

I'd prefer grouping them based on their physical traits, not their physical sex. The two are not always correlative. Stronger women should compete (in events where strength is an asset) with men of their strength class, not with women that are much weaker than they.
I am not really sure what you are saying, but weight classes are a thing for many sports (wrestling, power lifting, Olympic lifting come to mind). This is based on body weight, not how strong a person is.

Men and women generally do not compete together because of genetic differences (testosterone, for example, makes men generally stronger). There are also age classes (CrossFit Masters divisions, qualifying times for marathons based on age, etc.) because getting older affects athletic performance and recovery time.

I don't know what you mean by "strength class." If you mean "all people who can deadlift 300# compete together" that does not make very much sense. Some people will be 15 year old girls who weigh 125#, and some people will be 30 year old men who weigh 275#. It wouldn't make any sense at all to group these people together.

What I mean is, if their body type (weight, muscle mass, whatever qualifies someone) would qualify them for a specific sport or class of sport, I really don't care what's filling their pants.

Offline Lynn2000

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Re: Transgender Track Athletes
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2018, 03:03:37 pm »
I get what Thrabalen is saying, but I don't know enough about sports to give any kind of reasonable example.

In boxing, people are classed by their body weight, right? So there must be something about body weight that gives an advantage, such that it wouldn't be fair to pit two people of very different body weights against each other. Like the person who weighs more can hit harder, or the person who weighs less can jump around faster. Theoretically, could a woman and a man who were trained boxers, be pitted fairly against each other if they weighed the same? Or are there yet other factors to take into account?

Or suppose you had a sport where being especially tall posed a significant advantage. Could you line up everyone interested in that sport by height, and say that the 10% of tallest people can compete against each other, whether they are male, female, or something more complicated? Statistically you would probably get mostly bio-men, a few tall bio-women, and some transgender women who spent a good deal of time as biological males initially.

To me it's interesting academically because it forces people to really think about why the genders/sexes were separated in the first place. Sometimes it's obvious, like when greater muscle mass (where men usually have an advantage) is an important factor in the competition. Other times it's less obvious, at least to me. Golf? Tennis? (Serena Williams--even the best male player pointed out that he was only the best MALE player)

In my high school there was a girls' volleyball team, but no equivalent boys' team--what about volleyball makes women so successful at it? Why do boys have baseball, and girls softball? I mean, I really don't know. I think it's worth taking a look at the reasons, and seeing if they still hold up, especially in this day when many more girls start sports and other physical activities earlier.