Author Topic: Trump says illegal immigrants should be deported with 'no judges or court cases'  (Read 388 times)

Offline Damocles

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-trump/trump-calls-for-deporting-illegal-immigrants-with-no-judges-or-court-cases-idUSKBN1JK0OL?il=0

Wait, wait, wait...We're just going to toss out the 14th amendment now?  And conservatives are alright with this?

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Offline Kiara

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.
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Offline Marley

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.

The 2nd guarantees all the others will be upheld.
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Offline PeasInQueues

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They're arguing that the constitution only applies to US citizens, which is ridiculous. Ignorance abounds. They will find any excuse to explain this behavior of a sitting president who swore to uphold the constitution.
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Offline Lynn2000

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I'm no legal scholar, I don't know all the ins and outs of the law. But to me, the point of having judges and court cases is to make sure the person really is an illegal alien. If you start just grabbing people who "look" illegal and tossing them over the border, you know you are going to catch some US citizens, some people who are in the US perfectly legally, etc.. And, in the great American tradition, they are gonna sue you--not just a Border Patrol agent, but the entire US government.

I suppose it makes for good rhetoric. But in the interests of self-preservation--if nothing higher--it's a bad idea.
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Offline Fork Knife

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.

The 2nd guarantees all the others will be upheld.

What does this even mean, in reality? This is a tagline that made sense a couple centuries ago and should have stayed there.

I really don’t think the US Government and its enormous military gives a **** about some mad citizens with AR15s. The idea of a successful civilian uprising against the government is a relic of a time before the US military was X times bigger than the next five militaries combined, a time before drones, etc etc.

For a long time, the court system has been our best chance to ensure our rights are protected. So it does not surprise me that this administration is trying to get around the courts.
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Offline Lynn2000

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Yeah, at the risk of wading into a gun debate, the statement makes me imagine someone with their personal shotgun going into their state capital building, and holding a representative at gunpoint until "freedom of the press" or "due process" is upheld in some specific case. I mean, that's not a good situation. Maybe there's a decent action thriller in there, with a wronged man who has tried peaceful avenues to resolve his dispute and is now reduced to taking hostages, but we feel sympathy for him because in his initial situation, he really was in the right.

But that is not how things are supposed to be done in this country. You have the right to own a gun, but you aren't supposed to need to own one, to get your other rights upheld. Might does not make right.

guest121

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.

The 2nd guarantees all the others will be upheld.

It was supposed to, originally. Doesn't seem to be helping much these days.

Offline Allyson

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Canada doesn't have a 2nd amendment (I'm happy with our gun laws up here) and we also have freedom of speech and all other related good things! I promise we aren't a socialist prison where you'll be thrown in jail for using the wrong pronouns (being silly, I know nobody here thinks that but I have seen it argued!)
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Offline lmnop

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.

The 2nd guarantees all the others will be upheld.

Exactly! Look at all of those countries like Canada, Denmark, France, etc, etc, etc where they don't have the 2nd amendment and they have no freedom of expression or freedom of the press or freedom of assembly! People being cruelly and unusually punished all over the place due to the lack of due process or fair trial. And don't forget all the slavery. No women or people of colour allowed to vote. It's a nightmare. If only we had thought to put the right to bear arms into our constitutions perhaps we wouldn't be living in these dystopian nightmares.
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guest121

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Of course they are.  They ignore all of them except for the 2nd, anyway.

The 2nd guarantees all the others will be upheld.

Exactly! Look at all of those countries like Canada, Denmark, France, etc, etc, etc where they don't have the 2nd amendment and they have no freedom of expression or freedom of the press or freedom of assembly! People being cruelly and unusually punished all over the place due to the lack of due process or fair trial. And don't forget all the slavery. No women or people of colour allowed to vote. It's a nightmare. If only we had thought to put the right to bear arms into our constitutions perhaps we wouldn't be living in these dystopian nightmares.


You're quite right. But I had an interesting conversation with a British friend a while back about the cultural significance of the 2nd Amendment in the US psyche.

You see, violent overthrow of a despotic centralized government is our "origin story." It's how we became a nation, and mistrust of governmental authority is part of our self-concept.

We came into being through a violent revolt. We survived the gravest possible Constitutional crisis through battling a violent revolt. On annual commemorations like Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day, we remind each other on a Civic and national level that "freedom isn't free" and specifically link the survival of our democracy to the willingness of our fellow citizens to kill or die defending it.

It's an embattled mentality that sees the social contract as fragile and precarious.

Maybe it's a skewed view of reality? Maybe not? But it isn't random or stupid. It's got a strong historical basis.
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Offline PeasInQueues

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It's a strong historical basis that is fed by propaganda, which is why we have such a huge investment in the military industrialized complex while we let our veterans suffer.
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guest121

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It's a strong historical basis that is fed by propaganda, which is why we have such a huge investment in the military industrialized complex while we let our veterans suffer.

Quite true.

guest121

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I'm no legal scholar, I don't know all the ins and outs of the law. But to me, the point of having judges and court cases is to make sure the person really is an illegal alien. If you start just grabbing people who "look" illegal and tossing them over the border, you know you are going to catch some US citizens, some people who are in the US perfectly legally, etc.. And, in the great American tradition, they are gonna sue you--not just a Border Patrol agent, but the entire US government.

I suppose it makes for good rhetoric. But in the interests of self-preservation--if nothing higher--it's a bad idea.

This is not a hypothetical, by the way. Since 2012, nearly 1,500 US citizens have been improperly detained by ICE (That we know of. So far.)

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a20116355/ice-detain-american-citizens/


Offline Lynn2000

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I think there is also the national story of manifest destiny, taming the West, living on your own in the wilderness without depending on the government for help. There was a point in time when it made sense for everyone in certain areas to have multiple guns, if they could, purely to survive--hunting game to eat, defending oneself from wild animals and also from human criminals when law officers were few and far between. And when a respected person, with a gun and the will to use it, could BE the local law officer, by acclamation rather than official appointment.

Nowadays there is a certain hysteria that often appears, when there is talk of controlling, limiting, or banning any guns. Like people think they are going to be immediately stripped of their weapons and tossed into the middle of Wyoming, miles from any town, surrounded by a pack of hungry wolves. Like we are all living in a Western. I think the guns become, in a real sense, like a security blanket for people. Probably most people never use their guns, except for renewing their license or whatever, but feel better knowing it's there. (I do have family members who own guns to hunt, in the Midwest, as a hobby. I think they are responsible people, and I don't recall ever hearing them say anything about guns or gun control one way or another.)

I wish I could say, it's strange but benign, just have your gun if it makes you feel better. But the fact is, so many guns end up being part of accidents at home, and easy access in general means that people who are planning mass shootings have easy access to them as well. The statistics about gun deaths in the US, versus in other comparable countries, are staggering. If that many more people were dying in car accidents, we would be saying, "What is wrong with our cars, our roads, our drivers?! We need to fix this, NOW!" It just takes a few people getting sick from tainted lettuce in a salad to send that company's stock price plummeting. But whenever there's a mass shooting, with dozen of people DEAD, gun company stock goes UP, because sales go UP, because people buy MORE guns (so I have heard)--either to protect themselves from the rising tide of violence they see, or because they think someone will try to stop the guns from being sold soon.