Author Topic: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice  (Read 549 times)

Offline Lynn2000

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Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« on: January 10, 2019, 01:04:45 pm »
Not Always Right:
https://notalwaysright.com/parental-advice-is-always-welcome-but-not-always-up-to-date/135732/

A teen's parents insist they need to go in person to the fast food place where they want to work, when in fact the teen knows all applications must be submitted online. It's not really much of a story, but it got me thinking about other people I've encountered who thought that showing up in person, or doing some other thing the opposite of what I asked for, would somehow give them an advantage. Um, no. It just shows me you can't read and follow directions, which is kind of crucial for the job. ::)

At my work, I was the contact person for applicants when we posted a job, and everything was always done online up until the person came for an interview. I'm on my email all day, and so is our worker pool (college students), so normally it's not a problem. I was gone for a bit one day and when I came back there was a paper application, printed from the one I'd emailed them, on my desk. One of my colleagues said the applicant brought it in by hand and "looked annoyed" that I wasn't there to speak to. I put the application in the trash and treated that person as though they'd never replied to my email with the application attached (which is to say, no further contact on my part). My instructions clearly said, "Fill out this form and return it to me by email."

From a pragmatic point of view, I have a pipeline for processing, saving, and evaluating electronic applications--I have no process for paper forms. It just becomes difficult to collect and organize the information from a separate piece of paper, and why should I bother doing that amount of work for someone I barely know? These are entry-level positions that get over a hundred applicants--if we get to the point where we like someone on paper enough to offer an interview, I do much more individualized work to accommodate them. But not for someone who is, at that point, just #45 out of 102.

More philosophically, I work in a place where reading and following directions and paying attention to details is crucial--we work with chemicals, unique biological samples, safety rules, living organisms, expensive equipment, etc.. We try to explain and train people very thoroughly and make sure they have detailed protocols to consult. Questions about why or how are welcome at the appropriate time; but what we don't need is someone who thinks, "Well, it's my first day here, I think I know a better way to do this than what they told me," and screws everything up. Or, someone who simply doesn't pay attention to instructions or use the resources around them, but just goes with what they prefer to do. Again, that could lead to personal injury, damaged equipment, ruined experiments, lost time and money.

I understand it's dispiriting to realize you are just #45 out of 102, and you want to do something to stand out... but presumably you want to stand out in a positive manner, not a negative one. In my case I would say, show that by filling out the application carefully and completely--you'd be surprised how many people simply don't do that--and then honestly there's some important stuff you can't control, like if your schedule meshes with ours. 99 ways out of 100 to "stand out" are bad, in this situation.

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Offline GloryAndCrumpets

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2019, 03:28:03 pm »
Do you ever read the Ask A Manager blog? One of the things she touches on a fair amount over there is the sheer volume of really bad job-hunting advice that so many people dole out (often times people who should know better!). She has several entries about bad advice, the problem with "gimmicky" applications, and the fact that so often the parents or older people who give this advice haven't adjusted to modern job-hunting norms.

https://www.askamanager.org/category/bad-advice

https://www.askamanager.org/category/gimmicks-wont-get-you-a-job
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Offline Amara

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2019, 04:21:39 pm »
My late father was insistent nearly up until he died in 2012 that the best (only?) way to get a job was to personally go in. He was completely flummoxed when ads for jobs required you to fax your resume to a number that couldn't be traced to the company. He would have never gotten online applications. But personal visits worked when he was looking and beginning in about in 1945, just after he got out of the Navy, it was the best way. He got his first adult job at AT&T and spent his entire career there until the day it was broken up in, I believe, 1986.

Offline Lynn2000

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 04:35:21 pm »
I've heard of Ask a Manager but not looked at it much. I'll take a glance and see if I want to add it to my time wasting list. ;)

I think it's certainly true that general ideas about what brings success in job-hunting have changed, at least in some ways. The problems seem to come when someone (who hasn't looked for a job in decades) doesn't realize this, and offers confident advice to someone now looking. I would think "follow the instructions stated by the ad and application" would still hold true, though--like in old movies you see signs in the shop window saying "Help wanted, apply within." Obviously they want/expect people to walk in the door personally and talk to someone right then, and might not even have another form of advertising for their job positions, like a newspaper ad. Or the ad might say "apply in person" or "call ##" or something like that. To advise someone, "Ignore what the instructions say and do something different," seems rather silly! Except maybe for some very specific jobs in creative fields or something like that. You always read stories about how an actor got a part by doing something outrageous, which casting directors probably look on with horror, because again, 9 times out of 10, your stunt fails to impress.

Offline GloryAndCrumpets

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 10:41:35 am »
You always read stories about how an actor got a part by doing something outrageous, which casting directors probably look on with horror, because again, 9 times out of 10, your stunt fails to impress.

That's one of the things she talks about a lot at Ask A Manager- your "look at me, I stand out!" gimmick is not only not going to impress the vast majority of hiring managers, it may actually get you blacklisted. And in the rare cases where it does work, well, a company that values gimmicks over substance isn't necessarily a place you actually want to work.
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Offline Lynn2000

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 11:21:11 am »
You always read stories about how an actor got a part by doing something outrageous, which casting directors probably look on with horror, because again, 9 times out of 10, your stunt fails to impress.

That's one of the things she talks about a lot at Ask A Manager- your "look at me, I stand out!" gimmick is not only not going to impress the vast majority of hiring managers, it may actually get you blacklisted. And in the rare cases where it does work, well, a company that values gimmicks over substance isn't necessarily a place you actually want to work.

And of course, if we are talking about certain fields/jobs, like acting, those are usually short-term gigs, and afterwards the people involved might never have to see each other again. In which case, the people in charge are probably more likely to take a risk on someone who gives them day-to-day trouble but can deliver on their number one priority, because they only have to put up with the rest of their nonsense for a few weeks. A very, very different environment from someone trying to get hired at a salaried or even hourly position for the long term.

I've read numerous times about different situations that the top things employers want are reliability, honesty, ability to follow directions and communicate. I saw a show about a job-training program for people going into construction jobs, and was very surprised they didn't actually teach the people about using the construction tools--instead they taught people they needed to show up on time, pay attention to what they were taught on-site, follow directions, keep focused on work, and show up again the next day. Their attitude was, when you get hired, your boss will teach you the specific tasks they want you to do, but we are teaching you something even more basic than that, that EVERY employer in the future will demand.

Offline Kiwi Cupcake

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2019, 06:11:08 pm »
I miss the days when you hand in your job application in person. It *was* easier to get a job back then because you already gave your first impression. You're also not competing against hundreds or thousands of others. However even I recognize time has moved on and you can't show up in person anymore.

Offline DCGirl

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 11:40:33 am »
At one recent job, my boss liked to leave the back door of the suite unlocked while he went out to use the men's room in the hall.  Our offices were near that door, which was in the room where we kept the copier and supplies.  One day, while I was working, I heard the door open and then heard someone coming down the back hall calling, "Hello? Hello?"  I found a woman who was going door-to-door in our office building, handing out copies of her resume, looking for admin work.  So, she wasn't just showing up in person, she was borderline trespassing (admittedly, that door should have been locked).  I had a dickens of a time getting her back out the door, she was quite put out that I wouldn't accept her resume, and I later found out that she'd already been to the front door of the suite (the big glass one with the company logo, not the plain brown back door) where the receptionist had referred her to our website for the list of vacant positions and application instructions.  She did tell me that her car had died, she was unable to replace it immediately, and she'd lost her previous job as a result of her transportation issues, so she was looking for jobs within walking distance of her apartment. I do understand that when you're desperate, you'll do darn near anything, but I can't imagine that her going door-to-door was going to be successful. 

I heard a friend tell her teenage son that he needed to wear a suit to job interviews in order to stand out, and this was a kid who was applying for summer retail or fast food jobs.  I personally think that for kids that age and for that kind of job, a suit is completely unnecessary.  A button-down shirt and khakis would have been just fine. 


Offline whiterose

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 11:54:40 am »
One day, I had a girl who could not have been older than 30 come into my public library and say:

"I am here to drop off my resume in order to be considered for a job."

I told her that in order to apply for a job at the library system, one had to go through the county's website and fill out the application.

Her reply?

"I already tried that. But it was really hard!"

I referred her to the supervisor- who told her exactly what I told her. I never saw her again.

She did not state any specific problems with the online application- which would have been helpful if there was an actual glitch with it.

She did not ask for help with filling out the application.

She did not even ask if there was an alternate application.

All she said is that "it was really hard".

In order to work at the library- even in the Associate positions- one has to be knowledgeable about computers. We use a lot of applications, programs, and websites. We need to know all forms of technology in order to assist our customers. Even the Associates who handle materials still have to do check-ins, inventory, pull lists- and sometimes even assist customers if we are short-staffed!

So I do not know what was more bothersome- if she used a technique straight out of last century, or if she gave up so quickly on technology rather than asking for assistance or thinking laterally.

I had never seen her before that day. I have never seen her again.
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Offline Lynn2000

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 12:31:45 pm »
Yeah, being familiar with technology is such a major requirement in many jobs these days! I'm not talking anything specialized, just, "Can you figure out how to order from Amazon, or do you find that difficult?" Pull-down menus, clicking links, filling in forms, etc.. Not to mention being resourceful enough to find an answer to something if you don't know--that's got to be fairly universal, I think.

We've had a few people show up in suits for interviews at our work. It's really not necessary. I don't want to say it's actually detrimental, but sometimes it is--like if the person doesn't feel comfortable in a suit and that contributes to their overall nervousness, they might not make a great impression. You want someone, ideally, who seems to "get" what the job is--low-level, casual, but things still have to be done right, they have to be reliable and detail-oriented. Showing up in a suit, after I've said the interview will be casual--you really don't "get" what the job is, because no one here wears suits, and you might get dirty for the job anyway. I personally wouldn't penalize for a suit, but my boss, honestly, you never know what's going to turn her on or off someone. Also some people seem to associate suits and "dressing nicely" with using more scented products--even though I tell them do not wear scented products for the interview--and that's almost an automatic fail with my boss, who's very sensitive to smells.

Offline Winterlight

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2019, 10:43:53 am »
You always read stories about how an actor got a part by doing something outrageous, which casting directors probably look on with horror, because again, 9 times out of 10, your stunt fails to impress.

That's one of the things she talks about a lot at Ask A Manager- your "look at me, I stand out!" gimmick is not only not going to impress the vast majority of hiring managers, it may actually get you blacklisted. And in the rare cases where it does work, well, a company that values gimmicks over substance isn't necessarily a place you actually want to work.

Sean Young ran around in a Catwoman outfit because she wanted that role, including wearing it on the Joan Rivers show and making a plea to Tim Burton to cast her. Not only didn't it work, her career seriously cooled down.
If wisdom’s ways you wisely seek,
Five things observe with care,
To whom you speak,
Of whom you speak,
And how, and when, and where.
Caroline Lake Ingalls

Offline STiG

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2019, 11:42:36 am »
I remember that!  It didn't make me think that she'd be good for the role; it made me think she was seriously unhinged!

Offline Winterlight

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 02:35:01 am »
Yeah, it didn't do her rep with the viewing public any good, and it's not surprising casting directors would shy away.
If wisdom’s ways you wisely seek,
Five things observe with care,
To whom you speak,
Of whom you speak,
And how, and when, and where.
Caroline Lake Ingalls

Offline Pandorica

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Re: Not Always Right: Job-hunting advice
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 09:21:11 am »
I remember that!  It didn't make me think that she'd be good for the role; it made me think she was seriously unhinged!

I'm pretty sure that was her reputation already